As the Disciplined Entrepreneurship 24 step methodology has become more refined and robust from all the utilization it has gotten of the past five years, it has become clear to me that more and more the gating factor to success is the quality of the information utilized in executing the framework. This is Primary Market Research (PMR). If we put garbage PMR in, we will get garbage results out.

However, how do we get good customer and market data? That was an important element of the DE Workbook and I did some research to write the primer in that book. Still, I felt I did not do it justice. There is some good work done by Giff Constable and Frank Rimalovski with their books Talking to Humans and Testing with Humans, but even with these books, there is more needed.

As I have thought about this, given lectures and done a lot of coaching in this area, I have come back to journalists as being great purveyors of this skill. The good ones are able to be empathetic listeners, they are able to assess a situation and incredibly efficiently and effectively extract information from people. In fact, this is a fundamental of their job, which they have to perform every day.

This past week during a workshop in Norway, I had the great fortune to have a highly accomplished (6 years) journalist who was a participant. As I was talking about this subject, this fact became known and I had him speak to the class about how he gets so much information. He gave a brilliant 15-minute talk which led me to ask him if he could summarize the key actionable points in a short email.

Below are Trygve Meyer’s 15 key points. Trygve spent 6 years working at Bloomberg interviewing thousands of people up to the highest levels in Norway. I find them useful to think about but the key is to practice them so they become second nature.

Here they are with a sincere thanks to Trygve for sharing them:

1. The start of any good interview is preparation. Do your homework and use the resources at your disposal to collect information. For instance, using LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, friends, colleagues, publications etc. This information will not only make the interview more productive, but it will also make the interviewer more comfortable from the start of the interview.
2. Do spend a little time before the interview in their normal setting. Use your senses – eyes and ears. Pay attention to layout, view, objects such as art and books.
3. Find a good location for doing the interview. Preferably away from their normal office space. It is best to avoid a space they “own,” but at the same time, it has to be a place where the setting that will bring the interviewed person to ease. So, familiarity is important – need to be on “their territory.” Avoid public spaces too because of distractions and noise.
4. Write down your questions in advance. Have at least twice as many questions as you plan to ask. Some questions get covered during the interview without being asked, so to avoid cutting it short – have backup questions.
5. Ask if it is OK that you use a recording device. Clarify that it will be “only used for reference” and will not be used in any other setting or way.
6. Make sure you make a series of open-ended questions that can create further avenues for exploration. “What is your ideal solution/resolution? Why do you care about this problem? Do you have any ideas for how to solve the problem?” Then follow up by “You said xyz – what did you mean by that? Can you further elaborate?”
7. Have a clear plan for the progression of questions. Start with easy and open questions that will make the interviewed person to further ease and open up. A typical question can be: tell me about your normal workday?
8. Work on asking the questions. Think of varieties of the same question. How many different ways can you ask the same question? How old are you? When were you born?
9. If questions are avoided – go back and revisit the topic through a rephrased version of the same question. By the third time, something is answered the depth level and context will start to be close to the “truth.”
10. Ask the person being interviewed to re-enact or show you how certain things are done or how a particularly interesting point happened.
11. Use “yes”, smiles and positive grunts to reinforce what is being said. A supportive and empathetic listener will get more information than one that is not supportive. Keep in mind that you will want to strike a balance between becoming a cheerleader and getting the job done of getting the information.
12. Use body language to reinforce the “yes” and the grunts. Nodding of head etc. May want to “mimic” the person being interviewed if this falls natural to you. Not like every move because it should not be done in a way that makes it obvious and it looks like you are fully replicating their every move.
13. Do not sit with your arms crossed. Do not lean back and seem disinterested. Sit at the front of the chair and listen keenly to what is being said.
14. Don’t jump in with new question once the previous one is answered. Silence and pause often will prompt the interviewed person to fill the silence with more information. Likewise, keep recording after the “official” interview is over. There are often snippets of gold being offered right as one is rounding off.  The interviewed person is then at the most relaxed and lets down their guards.
15. Bring a “wing-man”. Keep in mind that it takes a lot of concentration to listen and guide a conversation in an interview setting. A second person can spend their time observing body language and be a second note taker. Always good to have someone to discuss answers and observations with after an interview.

In addition to these, Trygve shared that his mindset and often openly shared approach for any interview that. “I have no opinion on this matter.” Of course, over time, he will start to form an opinion but it is important that he start in a non-judgmental frame of mind so he is completely open to whatever the person being interviewed is saying. A good journalist (and PMR collector) does not steer the conversation to his hypotheses (bad journalist do). It is very important that is your overall tone and it is projected and acted upon for the whole interview. You are NOT selling, you are in inquiry mode and collecting data points to be analyzed.

Do you agree with the key points above? If so, which and what would you suggest? Are there other key tips that you want to share?

PMR is a skill that develops over time. Like entrepreneurship, it is learned in the apprenticeship model. You can only really learn by doing but still, it is nice to know the fundamental principles you should be executing when you “do”. So jump in and try the techniques mentioned about. You should always be doing PMR so it should not be long from now. The day a company stops doing PMR is the day that the company begins the slow but sure process of dying.

This past week (March 20-22), I had a full immersion into the Paris entrepreneurial scene. It was highly energizing and eye-opening since my last visit.

My previous visits (over two years ago now), had been quick visits to “City of Lights” – so called because it was one of the first cities to have lights due to early adoption of electricity. This early adopter mentality strangely did not apply to entrepreneurship or a translation of the first Disciplined Entrepreneurship book. It was surprising to me that the French version of the DE books took so long to happen. This is rapidly changing and they are one of the first now to release the DE Workbook, along with the original book, in their native language.

My previous visits from over two years ago to Paris had been relatively short compared to this one. This turned out not to be a problem because the entrepreneurship activities were limited. They were mostly nascent and focused in academic institutions. Big corporations dominated the business community’s dialogue on the subject. It was pre-Brexit and interest, energy, and resources for entrepreneurship were low – markedly lower than London or Madrid for instance.

Well, all of that has changed for the better. Things were popping the whole three days. There was a constant stream of media requests from journalists who were up to speed and knowledgeable. Station F and The Family presented vibrant and substantial entrepreneurial communities. In fact, Station F might be the biggest in the world. The Family had a much different feel, which gives entrepreneurs some nice options. Even corporate entrepreneurship activity was at an entirely new level. Axa Ventures held an open session that drew a large crowd made up of a wide variety of interesting people. It was very exciting to see a whole new level of interest from academic institutions such as SciencePo, Polytechnique, and HETIC, to name a few. No longer is entrepreneurship the plan C if the students cannot get a job in government or a big company.

That does not mean that it is all rainbows, sun, butterflies, and unicorns in Paris. I saw numerous areas for improvement. To be clear, however, even with these items, the trajectory is positive, progress is substantial and the positive vibes are now palpable. Here are the areas that I saw that I would encourage more discussion about:

1. Lack of integration: There are two clear “swim lanes” for top students in Paris – technical or business. Each is very impressive in the robust education it offers capped by iconic institutions such as École Polytechnique on the technical side and HEC on the business side. That being said, they lack integration. It is the integration of these two complementary skill sets in the classroom and everywhere else, that creates the hybrid vigor that makes MIT such a cauldron of entrepreneurship. Great new ventures are better off with heterogeneous teams but the French system makes this hard.
2. Too much focus on status and credentials: Entrepreneurs don’t care about credentials. That is in the past. They just care if one can get the job done in the present in their situation. Yet it was clear, what school one goes to make a huge difference in France. They just can seem to shake that class thing but they better if they want entrepreneurship to reach its full potential.
3. Business creativity: While Paris is full of amazing creativity on the design, art, and fashion, it felt like it lacked that creativity on the business side. This is harder to put my finger on but let me give you two thoughts on why this is the case. It is a derivative on the first point above of being able to explore multiple disciplines before deciding which one to settle on. In the French system, youth have to choose by the time they are 15 if they are pursuing a technical path or a business path. Because of the highly competitive nature of each path, students have to go all in on one or the other in order to advance. This stifles the creativity that comes from cross-disciplinary education. I would point to a second and more tenuous example (factor?). It is representative of French culture. French children are known for being particularly well behaved and I observed this while I was there. When I asked people why this was the case, they quickly and repeatedly said, “they are taught to respect authority”. While I love and admire well-behaved children, I also know I was not one of them and many other entrepreneurs were not either. Entrepreneurs are rule breakers. It might be difficult when they are young but that is the energy and out of the box thinking that helps later in life to innovate.
4. Social pressure to conform: Paris is a beautiful place. Parisians are beautiful people. Rarely do you see an overweight Parisian. I was told that this was in large part due to the fact that overweight people are frown upon there, openly and subtly. It is clear this strong social pressure also rolls over to failure. Many French entrepreneurs said their culture is one that frowns quietly but strongly on failure. Again, status and credentials are strong. They stay with someone for a long time (often mentioned right at the beginning of the obituaries in the newspaper) and it sounds like failure can too – or at least that is their fear. This certainly dampens enthusiasm for entrepreneurship as well.
5. Paris is definitely and proudly a French city: When you think about the two European cities that have burst forward in entrepreneurship ahead of Paris, they are London and Berlin. What is different about those two cities relative to Paris? They are both decidedly international cities. Even though London sits in England, it is really an international city more than an English city. Likewise for Berlin relative to Germany. Paris does not have that feel nearly to the same extent. It has international elements as well but not to the same ratio of London and Berlin. This makes it charming and very interesting but, again, does not help it in the world of entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship thrives in heterogeneous environments with a broad spectrum of people mixing. Paris is at a disadvantage compared to the others but it is the best France has to offer.
6. Too much friction: French seem far too willing to accept friction in their systems. It could be regulations or just relaxing processes more often and taking more risks. The classic example for me is Station F. It is built for entrepreneurs from top to bottom. It is a spectacular place yet getting in and out of the place – even to eat – felt like going thru security at the airport. That seems to make sense if I am going into a bank but an entrepreneurial community? That friction definitely stifles entrepreneurship. I must admit that after a few days in French-mode there, I was not surprised. It seems like it is all part of the overall picture in Paris.

I have chosen to focus on areas for improvement and not the tremendous assets that Paris and France have to offer – outstanding educational institutions, the legacy of strong technical entrepreneurship, excellent infrastructure and a culture of discipline. If “entrepreneurship in Paris” were a stock, I would go long in it. I see a bright future but that doesn’t mean we can wish it would come sooner and be even better. So we will. Impatience, within limits, can have its virtues.

Agree? Disagree? Please let us know your thoughts. Specificity will help the dialogue.

As always, thanks to my hosts in Paris at all the stops and most of all to the overall leaders of the tour in Paris, Jerome de la Croix de Castries, and Mathias Salanon. Your warmth, hospitality, and attention to details were fantastic!